Trinity and authority

[one]

Does God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all have equal authority?

[Porter Doran]

First of all, God is one. There is less variety in his persons than in my person. However, if we are to consider him in his three personal aspects -- well, I have never read, in Jesus or the Apostles, that they are obsessed with authority. However, there is a reason (among several) why the Father is called the Father. Jesus said "As my Father hath taught me, I speak." It is a revealing exercise to search the Gospels for "my Father" and see the many, many clause-pairs Jesus uses, to say "As he ... so I ..." -- obviously, the Will was first in heaven, then on earth.

[one]

All I wanted was a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. And I am not "obsessed" with who has more authority. What would make you think that?

[Porter Doran]

What would make you think that I said that?

And this is a discussion forum, not a court of law, friend. However, if you'd said, Say "yes" or "no", you might've gotten such an answer from somebody.

[glasshaus]

It depends on who you ask. It appears that Porter isn't trinitarian in his beliefs. I am, and the standard Trinitarian belief is that yes, each dimension of God is different in its function, but of equal importance and equal authority.
-Claven

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

Yes. There's a lot of good literature out there on the trinity if you wanted to do some reading.
---

What's your problem Porter? The person asked a question. Chill out.

[brambonius]

I would say Yes.

I guess the neo-reformed would say no, and teach about a hierarchy in the trinity. But I think I like the idea of perichoresis more, and not one cell in my body is interested in calvinism anyway...

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by Andy Alexis-Baker

Yes. There's a lot of good literature out there on the trinity if you wanted to do some reading.
---

What's your problem Porter? The person asked a question. Chill out.

What did I say? Can someone please explain? I answered his question concisely, including citations. What is going on?

[one]

It seems to me that these forums are full of people that are extremely into theology and different belief systems, and are focused more on intellectual aspects of religion. Maybe this is not the place for me.

[Pigmalia]

You brought up an intellectual question. Please start another thread regarding your real interests and see what response you get.

[glasshaus]

You don't need to feel like there isn't a place for you here. People like Porter tend to like to do all kinds of hermeneutical gymnastics and the best thing to do is just ignore him. I'm sorry that in an introductory thread on your first day you got that kind of response. Most of us aren't like that. Take some time to poke around. Certainly you don't have to stay if you don't feel comfortable, but don't base your primary assessment of the group as a whole on the unfortunate weird cold shoulder Porter gave you in this thread.
-Claven

[glasshaus]

Originally Posted by Pigmalia

You brought up an intellectual question. Please start another thread regarding your real interests and see what response you get.

I think this thread was stated as simply about this person's real interests as they could get. It's not too intellectual. Brambonius intellectualized it, and I don't know what Porter was doing.
If one was going to ask an intellectual question, it might have looked something like
"What are the more obscure systems of theology that you don't always hear about and what do they have to say on the trinity?"
That wasn't the question.
Someone is free to answer differently, but there is a dominant answer that is backed up by most moderns systems of Christianity and we don't need to badger anyone for asking a reasonable question (that i think most of us have had at one time or another.)
-Claven

[Pigmalia]

Well I'm brand spanking new to the forum so I've only begun to have any idea of the scope of the forum here. Given One's four very short posts it's very hard for anyone to know what One's main interests are. I suspect that given the time the forum has been around and the breadth of the topics covered it's not easy for a noobie to figure out in just a day or two.

I certainly hope to find out that it's not primarily a Christian poly-dating site. :P

[glasshaus]

Oh, Heavens. Is that what this looks like now? How embarrassing. {:(

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by glasshaus

You don't need to feel like there isn't a place for you here. People like Porter tend to like to do all kinds of hermeneutical gymnastics and the best thing to do is just ignore him. I'm sorry that in an introductory thread on your first day you got that kind of response. Most of us aren't like that. Take some time to poke around. Certainly you don't have to stay if you don't feel comfortable, but don't base your primary assessment of the group as a whole on the unfortunate weird cold shoulder Porter gave you in this thread.
-Claven

If my few scriptural allusions intimidated you, the following may be about really to terrorize you; here's a link to the observations around which my very-brief post was built:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...n1=9&bookset=4

[brambonius]

Originally Posted by glasshaus

I think this thread was stated as simply about this person's real interests as they could get. It's not too intellectual. Brambonius intellectualized it

A forum like this one is intellectual most of the time. So I answered in that vein. after I gave my simple answer: Yes, I would say they have equal authority.

And then came my clarification, which was intelectual indeed. But this forum can be pretty intellectual, and if you just say yes or no without any form of clarification some people may attack you on some forums.

(And I guess I'm used to defend my positions on such a topic on christian forums against neo-calvinists who have a strong opinion about almost everything, including the trinity having a strong hierarchy, nd if you disagree with them you are labeled heretic. But I don't think the jesus radicals will ever have much of those luckily... )

To get on topic again: My simple answer is yes, I do believe that the 3 persons of the trinity are equal in hierarchy. Some other Christians (like the earlier mentioned calvinists) would say no. And to see the differences a lot of intellectual data has to bee processed I am affraid...

I certainly hope to find out that it's not primarily a Christian poly-dating site. :P

yuck... If that is what the Jesus radicals forum has become then it would be a place for me either...

[Pigmalia]

The problem with the Trinity doctrine or dare I even say 'Predestination', 'Millennialism' etc., is that often they tend to make mountains out of mole hills and/or gloss over the varying nuances of the NT authors by treating the entire Bible as one big magic book.

Sometimes the NT just doesn't go into great detail on a particular topic and yet theologians such as Calvin become fixated on one particularity and then extrapolate it into some grand system that no longer reflects the focus of the NT.

Take for instance the issue of Trinity. The topic comes up often enough in the NT, but yet it's not as conclusive and deliberate as it has been made out by later Christendom. Wars were fought over this and now we've ended up with three person monotheism. Yet look how the topic is treated in the Gospel of John:

56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57"So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM"
59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

In my mind Jesus is here indicating to his audience that He is the only God they have ever known and worshiped.

[stefanwarner]

Originally Posted by one

It seems to me that these forums are full of people that are extremely into theology and different belief systems, and are focused more on intellectual aspects of religion. Maybe this is not the place for me.

Most of the people on here seem to be deep into theology but if anything, that is why I enjoy this forum. I don't post often but I follow the conversations on here pretty regularly. Were you expecting something else?

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by one

It seems to me that these forums are full of people that are extremely into theology and different belief systems, and are focused more on intellectual aspects of religion. Maybe this is not the place for me.

Don't let it scare you off, I can't tell you how often I don't understand what people on this forum are talking about. It is full of really smart people. I constantly have to research topics and theories people bring up in their posts and frequently have to get out a dictionary, some of these people have a vocabulary like they must have invented the English language. Stick around though, and you learn quite a lot.

[Marja]

Is divine authority the authority of the savant or the authority of the ruler?

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

First of all, God is one. There is less variety in his persons than in my person. However, if we are to consider him in his three personal aspects -- well, I have never read, in Jesus or the Apostles, that they are obsessed with authority. However, there is a reason (among several) why the Father is called the Father. Jesus said "As my Father hath taught me, I speak." It is a revealing exercise to search the Gospels for "my Father" and see the many, many clause-pairs Jesus uses, to say "As he ... so I ..." -- obviously, the Will was first in heaven, then on earth.

Thank you.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Andy Alexis-Baker

Yes. There's a lot of good literature out there on the trinity if you wanted to do some reading.

Could you recommend some?

I don't know if this really answers the question, but I like how Thich Nhat Hanh compares the trinity to the buddhist concept of interbeing. "A Zen monk said, 'Before I began to practice [mindfulness], mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers. During many years of practice, mountains stopped being mountains and rivers stopped being rivers. Now as I understand things properly, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.' ”

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by Marja

Is divine authority the authority of the savant or the authority of the ruler?

This is a rather brilliant distinction. A reading of the Gospels would show that, in each case Jesus evokes his Father's superiority explicitly (which is not so often), the latter is true (i.e., his Father knows what no one knows).

My own opinion, which I won't attempt to support right now, is that Jesus as God in humanflesh was of course inferior to God in heaven -- that, had he not been, he would not be the example to us and pleader for us that he is -- could not have been truly circumscribed, blinded, goaded by our humanflesh ...

Though there is much more to consider on the topic ...