John the Baptist failed his mission

[todd]

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

(Of course, since you think the scriptures were written by George Lucas, these quotations may not matter to you.)

No, many of the scriptures regarding the last days and the returning Christ are dreams and visions that people had thousands of years ago. Interpreting them literally is foolish and nonsensical and then believers are waiting for miracles in the sky. This is a foolish interpretation of scripture and prone to making the same mistakes that were made 2000 years ago.

[Porter Doran]

Are you a prophet?

[todd]

I am just passing a message along that I believe to be a revelation from God that can clarify our understanding of Jesus' mission and thus more clearly understand why he returns. Did I receive the revelation? No, but does the source of the message matter? What matters is if I can discern whether it is from God or Satan. There will be false prophets and anti-Christs that will lead people astray - but if we are warned about false prophets then that would imply that there will be true prophets as well.

Do you believe that God will reveal to faithful believers in the last days what is His will is? Or do you think that it will be so overwhelmingly obvious that it can't be mistaken? If the latter is the case I don't think it would take much faith to wait for something so obvious - actually I don't think it takes any faith to simply wait for a miracle.

Unfortunately, that is what so much of Christian theology comes down to especially concerning eschatology.

2,000 years ago the old testament age ended (which was about 2,000 years from Joseph to Jesus) and God sent prophets to attempt to awaken the Israelites - and then Jesus came with the new testament and the new testament age began.

Now we are 2,000 years into the new testament age and are in need of clearer understanding from God to prepare us for what we need to do as faithful believers in the last days.

What do you expect to happen this time when the Christ comes? Are you sure it will be so obvious?

Thus Jesus says - "And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18 7,8)

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by todd

I am just passing a message along that I believe to be a revelation from God that can clarify our understanding of Jesus' mission and thus more clearly understand why he returns. Did I receive the revelation? No, but does the source of the message matter?

Who is the source of the message? What prophet do you represent?

[todd]

the message is what matters - too many times the the messenger gets shot - so to speak. but check your email (porter) for a more in depth message. Some of the points in this thread are repeated, but there is much more. I'll post more on this site if people are interested. Although, I'm normally quite busy as a missionary. Again, I know what is written in this thread is quite new - but I would rope that the Jesus Radicals were open to new ideas...God Bless

[nabsy]

Originally Posted by Marja

G'd does not want sacrifices. I don't just think it's misguided to attribute our salvation to the crucifixion, I think it is truly anti-Christian to do so. It is torture, execution, murder. It is sin. It is death. The crucifixion failed. Death failed. Sin failed. The resurrection is part of the Good News. Jesus did not preach in order to get Himself killed. He taught despite the knowledge that it would get Him killed.

I concur Marja...this is something I came to from some reading of womanist theology...thanks : )

[Porter Doran]

Thanks for the e-mail, Todd. Why are you afraid to mention Rev. Sun Myung Moon in this thread?

*

"John the Baptist denied everything. He said, 'I am not Elijah.' He even denied the title of prophet. Everyone knew and recognized him as a prophet of God, but he said, 'I'm no prophet.' Why? He evaluated the situation and knew that Jesus Christ was treated by his own society as an outcast. Jesus seemed to be a loser, and John decided not to side with Jesus. He thought it would be much better to deny everything. By doing so, John the Baptist pushed Jesus into a corner, making him seem a great impostor without defense. After John's denial, Jesus had no further recourse on this point."

-- From John the Baptist: Man of Failure, Rev. Moon's address to Madison Square Garden, 1974

[todd]

I posted on this thread to discuss the topic. I prefer the method - mainly to focus on the message first - then the messenger. I do this way more or less because he is one of the most controversial figures with a very controversial teaching. But now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag - you can find out about his teaching by studying the Divine Principle or any of his speeches which are all online for free.
Here are some sites:
unification.net
reverendsunmyungmoon.org
upf.org

Please do so prayerfully.

God Bless

[Porter Doran]

It's unfortunate that Mr. Moon is so controversial -- otherwise, people would probably more-quickly be able to tell that he's full of shit.

But one can be easily diverted by theories and institutions (my dear parents were an example of this for years) if one is not wholly, clearly familiar with this:

The Good News

Please, fellow-posters, find a "paragraph" Bible and read a chapter of Matthew or another gospel every day. In spite of religion's derangement of it, the good news is entirely coherent.

[todd]

Be careful to judge so quickly. The Bible is a book about many prophets who came to give a message and were told they were full of shit by stubborn arrogant theologians who thought that they new everything.

I would have to say what is more full of shit is waiting for a supernatural ending to this world where most people will be thrown in to eternal damnation while the earth is destroyed with heavenly napalm and a new one is magically created for the handful of Christians who had the correct theology.

What are you expecting God to do in the last days??? Do you believe in revelation??? Do you believe that God sends prophets to give his message???

Be careful - 'Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matt 7: 22-23) - many Christians will be paving the way to hell just like the religious leaders in the past...

Ask Jesus in deep prayer...

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by todd

What are you expecting God to do in the last days???

Ignore the prophecies of Scripture and the teaching of Jesus in order to resend his Son as a fat Korean billionaire, of course. Do I win a cookie?

Ask Jesus in deep prayer...

While ignoring His copious and clear recorded words?

[todd]

Clear recorded words that have many Christians baffled about the 2nd coming...

"They will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds. -Matt. 24:30-31

"For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation." (Luke 17: 24,25)

Do you suppose he will come like ironman or superman by reading this scripture?

He mus suffer many things and be rejected by this generation??? How could this be if he flies out of the sky as a celestial being?

Remember that Daniel also saw this in the night vision...

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man," (Dan. 7:13)

Or Joel 2: 31,32

The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

What do you suppose people were waiting for 2000 years ago based on these prophesies?

I guess you still suppose that Jesus was supposed to be homeless with nowhere to rest his head. He was supposed to reign on the throne of David and be the King of Kings...

Look at Isaiah 9

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty

Or Luke 1: 31-33

"Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

Christ at the second coming comes to reign as the King of Kings - as he could have the first time had their been faith in Israel.

[nabsy]

Originally Posted by todd

I posted on this thread to discuss the topic. I prefer the method - mainly to focus on the message first - then the messenger. I do this way more or less because he is one of the most controversial figures with a very controversial teaching. But now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag - you can find out about his teaching by studying the Divine Principle or any of his speeches which are all online for free.
Here are some sites:
unification.net
reverendsunmyungmoon.org
upf.org

Please do so prayerfully.

God Bless

I am going to be pretty blunt here todd but honestly I think what you have posted in bold is garbage. I have never heard a message with a deliberately masked messenger that didn't end up being some kind of too good to be true bait and switch scam. Jesus our savior and friend shared the good news and he didn't shy away from controversy or hide his lamp under a bushel so his message could be more palatable. Noper--he stood up in the temple and read from the book of Isaiah and started his work naming who he was and what he was about. I find your act of coming on here and posting from sermons without attributing them to their author and acting like you personally have some revelation instead of just mouthing off someone else's teachings without naming the teacher to be utterly disingenuous and frankly very suspicious. You might not know it but your "method" is a complete turnoff so you might want to rethink your tactics.

[todd]

You can be turned on or off by the way I posted and how I posted on the thread and that is between you and God and has nothing to do with the message itself. Your narrow mindedness is plainly evident with a disregard for the actual point of the thread. I am sorry that Porter is turned off by his judgement of the messenger and you are turned off by the way I posted on this tread but they both escape the actual content which was regarding John the Baptist role in Jesus' ministry. What you are doing is steering the topic in another direction and escaping the point.

This section is called Scriptures and Theology - and that was the content of the thread - your Theology is full of holes and far from radical....it's nothing new and is full of contradictions...

Go on and keep believing that the purpose of Israel was to kill all the prophets and crucify God's only begotten son and then be destroyed so that God can send Jesus back flying out of the sky to rescue the Christians in some kind of hell fire distorted fantasy. You'll find out if it's true when you die.

Again ask Jesus what he thinks about your assumptions and theology concerning his life.

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by todd

... the actual content which was regarding John the Baptist role in Jesus' ministry. What you are doing is steering the topic in another direction and escaping the point.

Several of us addressed your libel of John Baptist early on. Simply put: Someone reading the Gospels with comprehension will never come to Mr. Moon's conclusions.

1. John did not betray Jesus

2. Jesus did not come to lead Israel to a material conquest of the nations of the earth

3. His death was not pointless

4. His and John Revelator's prophecies of his return are not "science fiction"

5. Jesus's teaching and Second Coming have not been canceled in favor of reincarnating him as a sleazy Korean billionaire with a foul temper

Search not just a scripture here and there but the Scriptures, and Mr. Moon's claims become laughable -- and blasphemous.

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by todd

You'll find out if it's true when you die.

Now who's refusing to argue?

Again ask Jesus what he thinks about your assumptions and theology concerning his life.

This idea that nobody prays but you is -- a unique one.

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by todd

Go on and keep believing that the purpose of Israel was to kill all the prophets and crucify God's only begotten son and then be destroyed so that God can send Jesus back flying out of the sky to rescue the Christians in some kind of hell fire distorted fantasy.

This is very important stuff you are mentioning, and I want to remind you and other readers that it has been addressed in the thread.

The purpose of Israel: "According to their own lawbooks, the ancient Hebrews were 'chosen' by God to be peculiarly exemplar to other nations, and to be extraordinarily blessed or cursed dependent upon their participation in the lesson." They also were promised to be the first to see the Son of God.

Jesus's life, teaching, death, and Return: Jesus came to announce, teach about, and embody the Kingdom of God. "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand," was his "gospel", i.e., good news. "Take up your cross and follow me," was his instruction to those who heeded his news: follow him in teaching, healing, preaching-to-power, and doing good, all without thought of personal pleasures and all in the face of death, knowing that death is not fearful but, embraced, is eternal life. This Kingdom he left us to follow in our hearts -- "I shall send you a Comforter to teach you all things I taught you" -- to live as though all the world lived it, to "be that man you would see in the world", to "do unto others as you would have them do to you", faithfully and fearlessly -- until he returns to bring this Kingdom into being in full and in fact. We do not follow a dead Teacher but one that lives next to God, daily conversing with him about us, nor a failed Teacher, but one who returns to remake the world gloriously, rewarding our highest hopes and best loves with true peace on earth, good will toward men.

[todd]

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

until he returns to bring this Kingdom into being in full and in fact. true peace on earth, good will toward men.

How??? If you don't understand how he would have established God's kingdom with Israel the first time (The Blessing Option) then you don't have much of a context to understands why he returns...

Tell me how will there be peace on earth and good will towards men?

How does he return?

What exactly will he do?

Please practical things here - we are talking about kingdom building (is it going to be anarchy? or will there be a king?) in full and in FACT - please elaborate.

[Porter Doran]

We don't know many practical details. Scriptures are full of hundreds or thousands of prophecies about it, however; and we can have no doubt he shall return to judge and reign. Morality and reason themselves require such an end.

But I'll tell you this, if your Messiah, Mr. Moon, ushers in the Kingdom -- if we're experiencing the Kingdom in his quirky rule and lousy speeches -- well, then the Kingdom sucks. Period. It's a snow-job, then, the Kingdom. That really should be all I have to say.

[todd]

You unfortunately can't give practical details because you don't understand clearly how God intended to bless Israel 2000 years ago if they had received Jesus as the messiah and how the kingdom would have been realized at that time. Instead they were cursed and their nation was destroyed.

Here are some practical details based on a clear and logical assesment of how our unchanging God has worked in the past.

Human Beings.

God chooses human beings to work through to give His prophetic declarations.

The messiah will come as a human being to establish God's kingdom on this earth.

The purpose of Christianity is to have a world wide foundation to receive Christ at his second coming for the salvation of the world and build the kingdom of heaven on earth so that there will be peace on earth and good will towards men.

Whether you look into the teaching of Sun Myung Moon or not is between you and God but there is still the reality of prophesy and revelation and that is going to come from a human being but you are not going to receive anything if you are looking for an obvious sign from heaven.

ps - calling names like fat, sleazy and lousy is childish and has nothing to do with the theological nature that this thread is supposed to be. This just reinforces why I didn't mention his name in the first place.

HUMAN BEINGS

If you are waiting for anything else you are going to repeat the failure of Israel.

[Porter Doran]

Just how contradictory to Scripture your claims are has been offered in this thread. You've been opposed by quotations therefrom. (For that matter, your own quotations patently oppose you.)

Now, Mr. Moon is well known as one of the most-copious donors to American neo-conservative politics. Also, his political mouthpieces, e.g. the Washington Times and Insight magazine, are among the loudest voices cheering the politics of oppression. What made you think his message would be welcomed on an anarchists' messageboard?

[Porter Doran]

Jesus to his followers:

At that time there will be great affliction, such as there has not been since the beginning of creation and cannot be again. And if those days had not been cut short, there would be no flesh saved; but because of the chosen, those says will be shortened.

Then, if anyone says to you: "Here is the Christ," or "here"; do not believe him. For false Christs will rise up and false prophets, and they will present great signs and portents, so as to mislead even the chosen, if that may be done. See, I have warned you. If then they say to you: "See, he is in the desert"; do not go out; or, "see, he is in the countinghouses"; do not believe. For as the lightning goes out from the east and shines as far as the west, thus shall be the coming of the son of man. Where the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered.

And at once after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the skies will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the son of man in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves, and see the son of man coming upon the clouds with power and great glory, and he will send out his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather the chosen together from the four winds and from end to end of the sky.

But concerning that day and hour none knows, not the angels of heaven nor the son, none but the father alone.

[todd]

This is exactly what I am talking about - you are expecting some pretty crazy shit to happen that isn't going to happen literally.

Genesis 37: 9-11 (Joseph's Dream)

Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?" His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

Daniel 7:13 (Referring to the coming of Jesus)

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."

The Jews demanded a sign and the Greeks look for wisdom. They got prophets and the messiah both of which were human beings.

You are demanding a sign but this adulterous generation will not receive a sign. It doesn't take faith to wait for the crazy shit you are expecting - just some miraculous whirlwind - wake up or don't expect to receive anything from the Lord.

Prophesy in the last days concerning the coming of the Lord will come from prophets who are human beings.

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by todd

This is exactly what I am talking about - you are expecting some pretty crazy shit to happen that isn't going to happen literally.

Why exactly should I believe your little man rather than Jesus and his followers through two millenniums? (Not to mention the Hebrews through five millenniums, nor the Hellenes with excellent rationales for a coming God-King e.g. Plato's "Statesman".) If I believe Scripture, Mr. Moon is wrong. If I believe in Jesus, he is wrong. If I believe in divinity and its necessary natures, he is wrong. If I believe in justice, he is wrong. If I believe in -- sanity -- you know, that a megalomaniacal businessman is not anybody sane's messiah-figure (no, Ms. Rand was not sane) -- he is wrong.

Daniel 7:13 (Referring to the coming of Jesus): "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."

Quoting scriptures that contradict yourself, again.

You are demanding a sign but this adulterous generation will not receive a sign.

You are misquoting blatantly -- here's the rest: "... no sign shall be given to it unless it be the sign of Jonah the prophet. For as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so the son of man shall be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights" (Mat xii.39f). Which is to say, the sign given them and us is Jesus's death and resurrection, which Mr. Moon and you reject as failure.

Prophesy in the last days concerning the coming of the Lord will come from prophets who are human beings.

Jesus was a human being and shall be when he returns in the celestial barrage that ends this evil world (the world Mr. Moon with his filthy lucre funds and covets).

[todd]

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

when he returns in the celestial barrage that ends this evil world

You are making a big mistake - and this is where Christianity turns into science fiction. Is it going to be like the 2012 movie or more like the Left Behind series? Make sure to post it on youtube.

And to make it clear for the record that that is your interpretation of scripture of which Peter forbids

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1: 20, 21)

and you are not alone in this type of foolish interpretation of scripture - all Christians are awaiting this kind of fantasy. You will be disappointed when it doesn't happen how you expect.