John the Baptist failed his mission

[todd]

John the Baptist as the returning Elijah had the mission to "turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse." (Malachi 4:6). To do this John, "among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater" (Matt 11:11), should have been the first to have united with Jesus received his teaching and then conveyed it to the Pharisees and Levites. Already respected by the religious leaders, John would have been a mediator of God's word to them and thereby "make straight the way of the Lord"(John 1:23). Unfortunately, John never became a disciple of Jesus and compounded the confusion of the religious community by denying that he was the Elijah (John 1:21) - Jesus' disciples asked Jesus, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" (Matt 17:10) and Jesus explained the John was the returning Elijah. The religious leaders needed to first see Elijah before they would accept the Messiah - Jesus and John were divided over his point - Jesus explained John was the Elijah and John denied being the Elijah. It was much easier for the religious leaders to believe John because he had a much better reputation as being the son of the high priest Zechariah. So in the eyes of the of the religious leaders - no Elijah = no Messiah. So we see at the end of John's life - he doubts Jesus, asking "Are you the one to come or should we expect someone else?" (Luke 7:19) and Jesus replies that he is explaining the works that he has done and then says, "Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." The religious leaders not having seen the Elijah, reject Jesus and crucify him and Israel is struck with the curse that we see foretold in Malachi 4:6 - John the Baptist as the returning Elijah failed.

food for thought and prayer - God Bless...

[glasshaus]

I'm not sure he really did have the respect of the religious leaders. Sure, the Pharisees and Sadducees came for baptism, but there is no discussion of their reasoning. They may have been trying to relate to the people, or may have been trying to figure out if John was a threat. Either way, he called them out and insulted them, and they didn't love him after that.
I have wondered myself why he denied being the returning Elijah when Jesus said he was, and the best I can come up with is that he didn't know.
All that aside, if he had succeeded in Pharisees and Sadducees to buy into the message of Jesus, that would have been a colossal failure. Because had Christ not been crucified, there would have been no sacrifice for our sins. No crucifixion, no atonement. John explained his purpose and pointed to the light to come, not realizing he was the prophesied Elijah. I think everything played out as it was supposed to.
-Claven

[Porter Doran]

What the hell?

[glasshaus]

Was that directed at the OP or the response?
-C

[todd]

1. If John had listened and followed Jesus any confusion about him being the returning Elijah would have been clarified.

2. Jesus had the power and authority to forgive sins before he was crucified: "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." (Matt 9:2) - When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." (Mark 2:5) - When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." (Luke 5:20) - 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." (Luke 7:47,78)

3. Actually the fact that he did forgive sins was one of the reasons the religious leaders wanted him crucified. - Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2: 6,7)

I understand that this is not at conventional understanding but I would have to disagree that everything that happened to Jesus was the divine will of God. Why then did God work to prepare the chosen nation of Israel for 4,000 Biblical years - simply to kill all the prophets - kill the son of God - and kill all the followers of Jesus - and then completely destroy Israel to the point that not one stone would be left upon another? - "They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." (Luke 19:44)

Thus St. Paul said that "None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1Corinth 2:8)

The prophesies that Jesus uttered when he knew there was no other way to go but to the cross were the result of the tragic failure of the Israelites to accept any messenger from God - thus the fig tree was cursed (Mark 11:21) and the kingdom will be taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruits. (Matt 21:43)

This should be prayed about to Jesus. God Bless...

[Porter Doran]

(Why are you reposting your contention? Did you forget that you began the thread?)

In all seriousness, Todd -- you participate in too many online role-playing games -- or there has to be some explanation why you find this fancy of yours speakable in rational company. John and Jesus and the politico-religious party leaders of their time all existed in the same real world you and I inhabit. There was no more "Take me to your leader" and magic hand signals then than there is now.

Let's say a radio host named Jim begins very effectively lambasting the corporate and church leaders of today, so much so that the bulk of middle America is moved to pledge to change their economic and spiritual way of life. Let's say that he is followed by Someone who says, "Now, leave those leaders altogether and follow me into a whole new Nation." Let's finally say that Jim says, "Listen to this man! His Nation is what I've been preparing you for!" not long before he is executed by lethal injection.

At what point, exactly, would have either of these prophets overlooked some hoodoo handshake to make all our corporate and church leaders abandon their roles and ideologies? Such fiction is not how real life works. All of us have free wills, stubborn wills -- and evil leaders are usually defiant even of the Holy Spirit inside them (Mat xii.31 &c.).

But what was your point? Once we have done "praying to Jesus" about his and John Baptist's failure, then what? I am all ears.

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by glasshaus

Was that directed at the OP or the response?
-C

Well, now that I've read your post, I'm happy to extend it to you. Are you really accepting Todd's mind-bending premises only to add: "John Baptist's real, undercover mission was to get Jesus killed"?

[todd]

I am responding to your comment - the best that you could come up with is that he didn't know he was the Elijah - thus point number 1

and also refuting the assumption that if John had convinced the religious leaders that you said it would have been a "colossal failure" - then why is Judas Iscariot not a saint for having turned in the lord - Jesus said that it would be better if he wasn't even born...

and pointing out with scripture that he didn't have to be crucified to forgive sins

and now after praying we might be able to understand more logically why Jesus came to Israel in the first place and ultimately understand why there will be a second coming - if he just came to die then we don't have much of a context as to why he comes back - this leads to one of the most dividing issues in Christianity - the second coming.

Ask Jesus if all that happened to him was God's will

So is your stance absolute predestination? If so was it God's will to kill all the righteous people - then destroy the chosen nation - then what would Satan's will be???

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by todd

... then destroy the chosen nation ...

I have a question for you: The ancient Hebrews were "chosen" for what?

[todd]

God's clear intention for the chosen people of Israel, whom He had led through all manner of difficulty from the time of Abraham, was to send them a Messiah and build an eternal Kingdom on earth. Nevertheless, when the Jewish leadership persecuted Jesus and led him to the cross, Israel lost its qualification to be the founding nation of God's Kingdom. Within a few generations, the people of Israel would be scattered over the face of the earth. They have suffered oppression and persecution ever since. This can be viewed as the tragic consequence of the mistake their ancestors committed when they condemned to death the Messiah, whom they should have honored.

[Porter Doran]

According to their own lawbooks, the ancient Hebrews were "chosen" by God to be peculiarly exemplar to other nations, and to be extraordinarily blessed or cursed dependent upon their participation in the lesson. Here is part of that:

"Thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself above all people that are upon the face of the earth. ... Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments and keep and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: and he will love thee and bless thee and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land -- thy corn and thy wine and thine oil, the increase of thy kine and the flocks of thy sheep -- in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people."

And here is another part:

"But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine and the flocks of thy sheep. Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out. The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. The Lord shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee until he have consumed thee from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. The Lord shall smite thee with a consumption and with a fever and with an inflammation and with an extreme burning and with the sword and with blastingand with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. The Lord shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee until thou be destroyed. The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away. The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch whereof thou canst not be healed. The Lord shall smite thee with madness and blindness and astonishment of heart: and thou shalt grope at noonday as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee. Thou shalt betroth a wife and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard and shalt not gather the grapes thereof. Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them. Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand. The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: so that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. The Lord shall smite thee in the knees and in the legs with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. The Lord shall bring thee and thy king which thou shalt set over thee unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations whither the Lord shall lead thee."

In sum:

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: Therefore, choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

(All quotations from Deuteronomy.)

[todd]

Thank you for the passages from Deuteronomy - what we need to do then is discern what was a blessing and what was the curse. Christianity is now repeating many of the failures that were made in the past by the religious people of the past. Obviously, they were cursed when they failed to receive anything from God. Christians now many times are the most arrogant, stubborn and narrow minded people who are caught up in theological dogma and concepts that are pure fantasy.

A couple of the mistakes were that:

1. That Elijah would come in a celestial way - just as he departed in the flaming chariot. Some thought that way while others thought he might be John. Either way they are still waiting for Elijah.

2. That the messiah would come and reign on the throne of David - and the problem there was that they thought he would be a military leader just as David was and that he would restore through military might the political empire of Israel for the glory of the Jews.

3. That the messiah would come on the clouds of heaven as the prophet Daniel saw in a dream. "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven." (Daniel 7:13)

Now most Christians are awaiting the messiah in a similar way as number 3.

[Porter Doran]

I don't think God is playing games with Jews or us. I don't think right and wrong as Jesus taught them are complicated -- and I think what remains is that we believe and do that right, by his Holy Spirit in us.

[glasshaus]

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

Well, now that I've read your post, I'm happy to extend it to you. Are you really accepting Todd's mind-bending premises only to add: "John Baptist's real, undercover mission was to get Jesus killed"?

No. I don't think he had an undercover mission. I think his plan was to prep people to follow Jesus. And I think it was God's plan to sacrifice Jesus on our behalf. Had the Pharisees and Sadducees adored John, they would have listened to him regarding Jesus, and been willing to give him a fair shake instead of an execution. I will admit to having kind of rambled onto another topic. I'm sorry to have confused you.
-Claven

[todd]

No, it is really not too complicated. Actually God's will for Israel is very simple - receive, believe in and follow Jesus Christ. With Jesus as the living King of Kings leading the way, Israel would have been the beginning point of God's Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Israel would have been blessed. God is NOT playing games - he just does not intervene in our portion of responsibility.

Jesus' mission: raise up sons and daughters of God (God does not want only one)

1. Attempted to convince and raise up the chosen people by giving God's word.
2. Attempted to convince them by miracles.
3. When these didn't work his only recourse was the cross and the promise to return.

I want to emphasize that the failure was not with Jesus but with John and the religious leaders. Through Jesus' sacrifice we are saved spiritually, but our flesh is still yoked to sin. If he was accepted we would have received physical salvation - to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect was attainable in the flesh if people followed Jesus.

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by todd

1. Attempted to convince and raise up the chosen people by giving God's word.
2. Attempted to convince them by miracles.
3. When these didn't work his only recourse was the cross and the promise to return.

I really can only urge you to reread the Gospels. I won't attempt an outline of the true course of Jesus's ministry, but I can refute your outline easily, I think. First, Jesus was even offered the crown by Jews but rejected it: he had no interest whatever in raising them up into a "chosen nation". Second, he said to them that only "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign", and that he would give them no miracle except his resurrection. Third -- well, it is hard to answer your third -- are you depicting "the cross" as some inter-space portal that Jesus used to escape earth? -- At any rate, Jesus knew he must die and explained as much to the Envoys long before they were able to see it.

[Marja]

G'd does not want sacrifices. I don't just think it's misguided to attribute our salvation to the crucifixion, I think it is truly anti-Christian to do so. It is torture, execution, murder. It is sin. It is death. The crucifixion failed. Death failed. Sin failed. The resurrection is part of the Good News. Jesus did not preach in order to get Himself killed. He taught despite the knowledge that it would get Him killed.

[todd]

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

he had no interest whatever in raising them up into a "chosen nation".

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Luke 13:34) He desired to gather them and raise them up like a hen...

Israel was already the chosen nation - that is very basic - chosen by God to receive the Messiah. Please, let me know otherwise the purpose that God led the Israelites out of Egypt and into the promised land. Why did God give the Mosaic Law and why was there a temple and a nation.

"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life...If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." (John 5: 39,40,46) The purpose of the Scriptures was to prepare a people for the Messiah - they were awaiting the Messiah but failed to recognize him - therefore their nation was cursed and people were scattered.

The Scriptures cannot give eternal life - the law was there to simply raise up the people. Thus Jesus said after the sermon on the mount, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (the sermon on the mount was fulfilling the law - for example - the law says not to commit adultery, but I say if you even look...etc...)

Also, when Jesus performed Miracles - he often did them in secret so that his disciples would understand that he was the Messiah and that then he could teach them God's word. But when rumors spread about these miracles then everyone wanted to see one - and they wanted to crown him king - based on the many miracles. Therefore he said this adulterous generation wouldn't receive a sign.

Jesus was a teacher/rabbi - teaching the way to be "perfect as your heavenly father is perfect" (Matt 5:48) and this would only have been attainable if people believed and followed his teaching - bu they didn't.

If the people believed in and followed Israel would be the center of God's kingdom today and not be the bloodbath that it has been for the past 2000 years as a result of killing all the prophets - killing the only begotten son - and killing many of the disciples.

Simple: If Israel accepts the Messiah = BLESSING (God's Will)
If Israel rejects the Messiah = CURSE (Satan's Will)

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by Marja

... Jesus did not preach in order to get Himself killed. He taught despite the knowledge that it would get Him killed.

Amen.

[todd]

Originally Posted by Marja

G'd does not want sacrifices.

Once God saw the faith of Abraham when he was about to kill his son, Isaac, he told him to not lay a hand on the boy. Why? "G'd does not want sacrifices" - God wants faith and if Jesus' disciples had the kind of faith that they were willing to lay their lives down for it - then Jesus' could have lived to accomplish God's will for Israel - the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Jesus and the disciples could have evangelized in Rome - and their teaching would have been received (if you remember that Pilate didn't see anything wrong with Jesus and washed the innocent blood off his hands). If this happens then Rome wouldn't have invaded Israel in 70 AD and wouldn't have fallen. With the foundation of Jesus' teaching and leadership (as the KING OF KINGS) he could have spread the teaching to the world. Why did Rome fall? It didn't have the moral fabric to hold it together and became rotten from the inside. It took Rome almost 400 years to recognize Christianity as the state religion but at this point it was to little to late for Rome and it fell.

Why does this all matter? Christ will return in our day - but we can't really understand this if we don't understand how Jesus would have established God's kingdom 2000 years ago. Remember the second coming of Elijah was not the same person - what if the second coming of Christ is the same and it is a different person that comes to bring God's word? That will take faith and discernment to understand the word of God through another person. That is what the Israelites did to all the prophets and disciples as well as Jesus. In the last days there will be more prophesy and revelation but it will come from people in the same manner that God has always worked to send his word.

No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

What I have put fourth is a new revelation concerning Jesus' life and mission and I implore you to pray about this - whether this comes from God or Satan. That is everybody's responsibility.

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)