Goshen College and the National Anthem

[stefanwarner]

I guess I've given up trying to dialogue with people who disagree with me on the internet. I don't know what to say.

This is from the For Goshen College Honoring Our Country with the National Anthem group.

Mike: I feel that is is God's will for us to protect the innocent of the world. Sometimes, in order to protect the innocent, war is needed. For example, war was needed when Hitler was killing the innocent Jews. Or when terrorists fly planes into buildings and kill over 5,000 innocent people, war is needed. Notice "needed" not wanted.

Stefan: Mike, what makes you "feel" that war is God's will?
Mike: I feel that it is God's will to protect ourselves when we are struck.

Stefan: I understand that. Does scripture lead you to feel that or is it something else?

Mike: Yes. Scripture does say it is ok to defend yourself. David killed Goliath because he was talking trash about Christians and intimidating them.

[nabsy]

Originally Posted by stefanwarner

Mike: Yes. Scripture does say it is ok to defend yourself. David killed Goliath because he was talking trash about Christians and intimidating them.

Oh dear Lord...I have to laugh or else I would weep like a baby...

[Porter Doran]

Reminds me of when I overheard someone dismiss a scriptural event because it happened "before Abraham was born again".

[stefanwarner]

It made me laugh/bummed me out when I read the kid's comment but what really bothered me is that he actually goes to Goshen College. I just don't get it.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

I doubt he's Mennonite. Goshen College has a sizable non-Mennonite student population. The problem is that those students may not be getting any education into what it means to be at a Mennonite institution or about Anabaptist history and theology. There is, I think, an education problem at Goshen College. The athletes who play baseball and track are mostly non-Mennonite. Many of their coaches are not Mennonite and not pacifist either. And the school has not educated them as to why they did not play the anthem, or about what it meant to be pacifist and Christian. Not only that, but the student athletes have little support from their own coaches on the matter. So when the college sends them to play and they catch hell about not playing the anthem, they don't know what to say.

There are numerous problems at the college and this is one of the most serious. A huge gap in the education process that allows people to go through there and not really encounter, in any meaningful way, anabaptist theology. That is one reason why Jim Brenneman's solution is no solution. The solution to this problem is education of all the students on what it means to be at this institution. Even the Mennonite students may not be able to say why they did not previously play the anthem beyond, "We are Mennonite" which is not a very good answer. So instead of doing the hard work of education, the administration changed the policy. They failed to be educators.

[mountainguy]

Originally Posted by stefanwarner

Mike: Yes. Scripture does say it is ok to defend yourself. David killed Goliath because he was talking trash about Christians and intimidating them.

So sad there is not any verse about self-defense against morons

[stefanwarner]

I was very surprised with this article, even though it was posted on the Gods Politics blog.

http://blog.sojo.net/2010/03/03/peac...tional-anthem/

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by stefanwarner

I was very surprised with this article, even though it was posted on the Gods Politics blog.

http://blog.sojo.net/2010/03/03/peac...tional-anthem/

"I oppose displaying a national flag or playing the anthem in a church sanctuary." Hand me a hankie. I'm weeping with admiration at Mr. Shank's revolutionary fortitude and stand for peace.

[DaphneBlueStrat]

Originally Posted by stefanwarner

I was very surprised with this article, even though it was posted on the Gods Politics blog.

http://blog.sojo.net/2010/03/03/peac...tional-anthem/

"If Goshen College were ever to allow military recruiters on campus or play the anthem in a chapel service, I would be leading the opposition. But playing the anthem before a baseball game does not rise to that level," says the author of the article.

Am I wrong-headed in thinking that playing the anthem before a baseball game does, in fact, "rise to that level?" Aren't Christians called to "do (everything) in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Collossians 3:17)? Wouldn't "everything" presumably include baseball games?

And why should we be so concerned with "show(ing) that we are patriotic Americans," anyways?

...I guess I'm just preaching to the choir. But ... yikes.

[Porter Doran]

What we have here is a clash of paradigms. Once the, let's say, Baptist paradigm is adopted, then any attempts to interpret the Anabaptist acts and teachings will be (like Shank's &c.) bizarre. What we have here is a class of kingdoms. No one not dwelling in the one will be able to explain the other, no matter how sincere he is.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

Letter to Editor, from GC Faculty published inThe Goshen College Record

[victor]

Originally Posted by Andy Alexis-Baker

The solution to this problem is education of all the students on what it means to be at this institution. Even the Mennonite students may not be able to say why they did not previously play the anthem beyond, "We are Mennonite" which is not a very good answer. So instead of doing the hard work of education, the administration changed the policy. They failed to be educators.

Andy - you nailed it.

[noble]

[QUOTEhttp://blog.sojo.net/2010/03/03/peac...tional-anthem/[/QUOTE]

I claim my citizenship in the Church, a holy nation - not the USA.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

Hey folks, we keep updating and cataloging various calls for Goshen to reconsider their decision at http://www.jesusradicals.com/calls-t...llenge-goshen/

I particularly like Yorifumi Yaguchi's letter to the editor of The Goshen College Record in which he draws on his Japanese context and explains why Japanese Christians often refuse to sing the Japanese anthem.

----

Nekeisha and I sat and talked with Jim Brenneman, president of Goshen College, this past week for almost 2 hours. It was a good and frank conversation. I am hoping we can pull together some thoughts about it at some point and put them up.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

J. Nelson Kraybill, former president of AMBS, who is currently pastoring a local Mennonite congregation and just authored Apocalypse and Allegiance: Worship, Politics, and Devotion in the Book of Revelation (Brazos Press, 2010), signed the petition today. He left a great comment as well. In general, local Mennonite leaders have been somewhat reluctant to sign this or to do much about it. So I am very happy that Nelson, whose work I have admired ever since I came to AMBS, is supportive of efforts to roll back this awful decision.

By the way, Nelson's book I linked above on Revelation is really, really good.

[victor]

Andy, I'm hoping you'll follow up on your conversation with Brenneman. I really want to hear what that interaction was like.

Also is there any plan? Tuesday is the debut and I'm unaware of any plan for respectful resistance. If I missed something please let me know.

[glasshaus]

This is short- and you may already have a plan in place. I don't go to the college. But if you have enough students on board you could all simply agree to sing a hymn loudly enough to drown out the Anthem. Something simple like a few verses of Amazing Grace. As many verses at it takes to cover the length of the Anthem.
-Claven

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

"Victor"

http://www.jesusradicals.com/goshen-...o-nationalism/

[noble]

Andy & Nekeisha,

Thanks for your nonviolent resistance against the playing of the national anthem of the USA. It is a sad day when many Mennonites lose their resolve to stand up for the truth of the gospel of the kingdom of God.

We are called to march to the beat of a different drum - the heart of God. It is the nonviolent Father who calls us to fight against the powers and principalities of this world by following the Prince of Peace in taking up a cross - not a sword - as the banner of truth that we would rather die for our enemies than kill them for the nation's survival so they may know evil and death is conquered in Jesus the Christ.

Now Mennonites can join the cannibals at the All Cannibal Bowl and hear the cannibals' anthem sung and glory in the victory of the brave cannibals who fought for their freedom to live as cannibals. The world is eating this up!

Elbon Kilpatrick
Jackson, Tennessee

[Rob A]

Saw this link from CNN's homepage today- http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/24...t-time/?hpt=T2

How would you assess the quality of the press coverage of this whole thing?

[AnArchist]

natianalism is everywhere a problem and just one way to solve it, to deny it!
keep on!

[GrahamS]

Originally Posted by Rob A

Saw this link from CNN's homepage today- http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/24...t-time/?hpt=T2

Jesusradicals.com, which claims to explore the connections between anarchism and Christianity, called the move an “act of cowardice,” likening the anthem to a golden calf - a biblical reference to a false idol.

Well then.


From the comments (of course reading the comments on news stories is almost always a bad idea):

The country was founded by war (Revolution) to free us from religious and political oppression, and give us the freedom to worship and preach the gospel, or not. Otherwise, there would be no Mennonite University, or faith. We would be one homogenous religion, or no religion at all in a godless society (see Communism, s etc). My father fought in WWII to keep this nation free. Millions have shed their to do the same. Play the anthem, and put away the religious dogma and legalistic yokes. Appreciate the fact you live here, not in China.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

Thanks Graham. Jim B. Just has a case of the "wordy squirts" as Colbert called it. He just does not seem able to decline to speak to the media and it is not helpful. I also feel that it is something of a betrayal of what he told us in private about this being an experiment. he is not using that language in public.

Graham, if you and others are able to make it to the event I sent the email about in April, I highly recommend that you come. I have it on very good authority that the admin was actually gloating this morning that not too many people showed up to the game to protest. As if the numbers at the game represents support they have or not (of course they have support amongst the status quo, but not much amongst Mennonites at all is my sense, and there are plenty of non-Menno's who hope they change their minds.)

Any smugness they got from yesterday stops in early April. Also feel free to send that around to sympathetic folks. It's going out to the entire JR list very, very soon.

Come!

(edit: Graham: I assume you got the email I sent out yesterday to the local list...that is what the references I made were to)

[GrahamS]

Andy, unfortunately I have a memorial service to attend on the nearest date and will be working during the second date.

I did get the email. Of note--Google sent it to my spam box and put this in the header

Warning: This message may not be from whom it claims to be. Beware of following any links in it or of providing the sender with any personal information.

[glasshaus]

I just read the CNN article. That was so sad to see. And so confusing to read St. Francis' Peace Prayer afterwards. It's so hot/cold.
-Claven