The Faith of Barack Obama

[Porter Doran]

Originally Posted by keith johnson

But the fact is, sometimes the option IS to kill or be killed--I'd say that the way of Christ is to choose the former.

Then I don't think you and I have much further to say to each other. God damn you or bless you in his time.

[keith johnson]

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

Keith, you really do need to rethink what means "coercion". "If it's right and I make you do it, then it's not coercion" is -- just unspeakably mistaken thinking.

Hi Porter: I never said any such thing though, P. My questioning whether or not you have the right to refuse to pay taxes has nothing at all to do with whether or not the use of force to MAKE you pay taxes is morally proper. You are reading a lot of stuff into my comments.

[keith johnson]

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

Then I don't think you and I have much further to say to each other. God damn you or bless you in his time.

Wow! I have to say I never expected to hear a brother in Christ ask God to damn me! Especially for disagreeing with you about something like voting. I have to say, I think you might ought to reflect on what it means to love someone as yourself.

your friend
Keith

[edamos]

Brother,
It seems to me life in its very nature is coercive. It makes certain demands on us as people, and if we don't step up then we fail to be faithful. These immigrants lives make certain demands on us as a people. I don't know any other way to help them get their treatment but through taxes. What do you think God might be saying about this situation? Should we fund the hospital or shouldn't we? Should we leave it up to people who feel like paying for the hospital? Would the hospital get built and would people get cared for in that case? You might say there are other choices, but my thing is we need to deal with what is happening right now as faithfully and as concretely as possible. These are people's lives at stake, and yes, that is coercive. I think either we embrace that in the here and the now, or we continue to go into the world of death and injustice.

[Mark Fish]

edamos,

Bad argument. Naturally occurring consequences can not be construed as coercion. Gravity is not coercive but a man forcing you of a cliff is. A man (or woman), any man (or woman) placing themselves in a position over another or imposing artificial consequences is coercion.

[edamos]

What do you mean by "naturally occurring consequences"?

[Mark Fish]

edamos: "What do you mean by "naturally occurring consequences"?"

Any consequences that occur without human contrivance, i.e., you jump off a 1000 foot cliff you fall to your death; you jump in front of a speeding train you die; you stick your hand in a vipers nest you get bitten, and so on. On the other hand any consequences imposed by human contrivance is coercion/violence, i.e. any human prescribed regimen of punishment. I would say that a divine act is synonymous to a naturally occurring act, i.e., the loss of ones soul, demon possession, rejection from heavenly Kingdom, divine curse, and so on.

[edamos]

I will just say "thank you" for now. I realized your post was self explanatory after I wrote my earlier post, sorry about that. But your further explanation is helpful.

[glasshaus]

Originally Posted by keith johnson

Wow! I have to say I never expected to hear a brother in Christ ask God to damn me! Especially for disagreeing with you about something like voting. I have to say, I think you might ought to reflect on what it means to love someone as yourself.

your friend
Keith

Perhaps- I hope this is the case- there was a misunderstanding.
Porter's statement was response to you saying that sometimes we have to kill or be killed and you think it's the way of Christ to choose the former (killing.)
Were you speaking metaphorically? Did you mean simply to work on voting or lose to the other candidate? And you believe it's the way of Christ to work on the campaign?
I have a personal disagreement, but I don't think that's anywhere near as skewed as believing that it's the way of Christ to kill. I just want to give you an opportunity to clarify, because I was also taken aback a bit by what you said, so if it wasn't what you meant, I'd like to know.

[keith johnson]

Originally Posted by glasshaus

Perhaps- I hope this is the case- there was a misunderstanding.
Porter's statement was response to you saying that sometimes we have to kill or be killed and you think it's the way of Christ to choose the former (killing.)
Were you speaking metaphorically? Did you mean simply to work on voting or lose to the other candidate? And you believe it's the way of Christ to work on the campaign?
I have a personal disagreement, but I don't think that's anywhere near as skewed as believing that it's the way of Christ to kill. I just want to give you an opportunity to clarify, because I was also taken aback a bit by what you said, so if it wasn't what you meant, I'd like to know.

Hi G: it was DEFINITELY a misunderstanding--I meant to say that between "kill or be killed" the way of Christ is the LATTER! Oops. I didn't even notice what I wrote until you pointed it out.

your friend
Keith

[Porter Doran]

Thank you, Glasshaus!

Mr. Johnson, I deal too much with fundamentalists (in other places than here, of course) and took for granted you did mean "former", as I've had that flung in my face many a time. Jesus's way the way of killing? This is blasphemy.

However, I did not say "Then I don't think you and I have much further to say to each other. God damn you or bless you in his time" to condemn you for even that belief. I said it to mean that very clearly you and I would share no usable foundation whatever for discussing the things of Jesus.

All the same, please forgive me, and thank you for relieving my mind.

[keith johnson]

Originally Posted by Porter Doran

Thank you, Glasshaus!

Mr. Johnson, I deal too much with fundamentalists (in other places than here, of course) and took for granted you did mean "former", as I've had that flung in my face many a time. Jesus's way the way of killing? This is blasphemy.

However, I did not say "Then I don't think you and I have much further to say to each other. God damn you or bless you in his time" to condemn you for even that belief. I said it to mean that very clearly you and I would share no usable foundation whatever for discussing the things of Jesus.

All the same, please forgive me, and thank you for relieving my mind.

We're good:-)

keith