Changes

[Marja]

What would you suggest that people, going through major changes in their lives, focus on? What would you suggest that people try to let go?

As I've explained before, I'm a TS woman. I believe that God has created me this way and guided me towards transition. I'm now full-time and I'm on hormones. I feel more alive than ever before, but I want to make sure I stay on firm ground.

[caleb]

Faith, Hope, and Love. These three. But the greatest is love. I don't think that someone going through a lot of changes has any other tools than the rest of us. Faith means we trust in God that somehow, no matter what our challenges are, they will work out in the end. Hope means that somehow we can try to picture in our minds what that outcome might look like. It's an anchor for our soul. In the end, the final result might be different than how we pictured it, but we need that mental picture all the same, something to cling to and direct our energies towards, all the while being flexible enough to let God take us down another path if that's where we ought to be led. And unconditional love. The greatest gift in heaven or on earth. The spark of the Divine within us. Cultivate that and nothing can take our joy away, because it will be God working within us.

[Josh Humphries]

As someone dealing with health issues that entangle with lifestyle issues (e.g. living with family members due to the cost of medical care and such), one thing I remind myself of at every chance I get is the text known as Ecclesiastes or Qoheleth. Chapter 9 probably helps the best.

In general, people should get rid of silly "Prayer of Jabez"-like notions that everything's going to go the way they want them to, simply because they "play for the right team."

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by Josh

In general, people should get rid of silly "Prayer of Jabez"-like notions that everything's going to go the way they want them to, simply because they "play for the right team."

Good point Josh. And I appreciated your input as well, Caleb. Very well said.

[KillerTOFU]

I ditto Josh's response.

[caleb]

I think in general we ought to get rid of silly pessimistic notions that the universe is out to get us and life is futile. ;)

Sometimes things won't work out the way we want them to. That doesn't make faith and hope meaningless. At some point we're going to die. That doesn't mean we should look for death around every corner.

sigh. why do I waste my breath?

Good luck to you Marja on your transition. Things can be very well for you, but all change is scary. Humans like consistency and knowing how things are going to be from day to day. Change disrupts that. But for me, it helps to embrace change knowing that I am a fully empowered person.

[Josh Humphries]

Originally Posted by caleb

sigh. why do I waste my breath?

Because that's what it means to live.

I'll throw in two excerpts of a message that I send out around Good Friday every year (one that I amend/alter each time):

Some translate that "vexation of spirit" as "chasing wind." The word
there for "spirit" or "wind" is ruach, which can also be life
and...BREATH! And the word there for "vexation" or "chasing" is
r'uwth. It's also got a huge cache of meanings, including "feeding
upon" and is probably derived from a word describing shepherding or
grazing. One image that can be drawn out of it (by taking a liberty
or two with the "literal" translation, yet keeping the cultural tone
of the words) is trying to lasso the wind, which has a host of
associations with American folklore and music. A friend pointed out in
a previous edition that the Hebrew phrase could also be taken to mean
"a smelly fart." Another image that can be drawn out is a rather dark
pun: "Life is a waste of breath!"
...
It's in that messy (to borrow a trope from Mike Yaconelli) place that
the holy is found. At the base of our vulgarity, despair, and fear,
we find our courage, laughter, and glory. That's the radical idea of
most, if not all religions: that rags and royal robes are the same
thing at some other level of reality. It's putting on "the garment of
praise for the spirit of heaviness," "beauty for ashes," and the
delicious strawberry on the vine at the edge of the cliff, right
before the fall. And that's something you can get regardless of your
beliefs.

It's not pessimistic to believe that life sucks and is futile; when you take such an idea and then look at the beauty of what such a hideously futile system produces, it's hard to not be moved to tears by it. I know I feel that way when I see my two nieces, especially my 5 month old niece and see her smile and hear her coo.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

Originally Posted by Marja

As I've explained before, I'm a TS woman. I believe that God has created me this way and guided me towards transition.

How do you know it is God and not some other force? How do you know God created you this way, and not some social force, or some natural result of a variety of material forces that somehow pulls you in a certain direction?

The only thing we have to go on about God, is what we have in Scripture, what we have there about Jesus in particular. I find it very hard to believe, given the thrust of Scripture on this type of thing, that this is a result of God "creating" anyone with the desire to change their body into another sex. (I understand there are the outer limit cases of a few people born in a kind of ambi-sexual physical state who must choose one way or another...but that is a different thing).

I mean we live in a culture and time that makes this possible, and it is a result in my opinion of a very distorted culture that can allow people to change the very core of life through such techniques. As someone who has serious misgivings about modern technological society, this is one of the issues that confirms to me that this whole system and culture if fucked up.

If I were your friend Marja, and I knew you, I would advise you not to do it. But I am not, I don't know you, nor you me; unlikely we will meet or become friends and online there is no friendship, only penpals at best. So I have no advice except get some advice from people who disagree with you.

[Marja]

Thanks, everyone. I've read Ecclesiastes 9 and ought to reread the whole book.

How do you know it is God and not some other force? How do you know God created you this way, and not some social force, or some natural result of a variety of material forces that somehow pulls you in a certain direction?

I'm glad someone's arguing another side.

I don't think these are completely exclusive. But I was praying for guidance, if not transformation. Over the next several months several things fell into place. A long-lost friend contacted me and told me about her transition. My asthma mostly let up. etc. Okay, it's possible I've gotten the order of events mixed up. And it's possible this was all coincidence. Prayers for assistance and guidance have been part of the Christian tradition since "Our Daddy, who is in heaven..." even if they have been corrupted.

1. Is there any thrust of scripture on this? Aside from enigmatic and possibly-supportive passages in Matthew?

2. It's known that certain prenatal hormonal disruptors (such as DES) can cause both IS and TS. It's hypothesized that natural prenatal hormonal spikes, at critical times in genital development can cause non-genetic IS, and similar spikes, at critical times in brain development, can cause other effects.

3. It doesn't go away. 1940s-1950s practice was to send TS MtF patients for psychotherapy, drugs, shock treatment, or lobotomy, but to send TS MtF patients who had managed to emasculate themselves for reconstructive surgery. The results were predictable. Occasionally in the 1950s, physicians did assist with transition, and as the norm from the late 1960s, at least 15 months of counseling, at least 12 months full time and 12 months on hormones, has been required. Also, surgical techniques changed. The present setup is designed to enable careful transition, but prevent rash actions.

4. It has existed in other cultures. Of course the physical treatments have gotten better (and are getting better) but they simply underscore the desperation of people who went with older two-stage SRS, and before them, people who took the only options then available... Some people find that CDing gives some relief, and that has been present everywhere.

[Jeremy]

Andy raised some good questions about what you're going (or considering going thru with) through Marja, and it doesn't seem that the points you responded with significantly address them.

I'm sure that it's been a hard road for you to try to "figure it all out" re your own particular life choices, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on coincidences to the exclusion of other ways of discerning God's will about this.

Also, maybe i'm missing something, but the 4th reason you mentioned seems a little like the "everyone else is doing it" kind of argument.

Anyway, whatever you decide to do really is up to you, and I wish you well.

Peace and love-
Jeremy

[Shadowmancer]

Originally Posted by Andy Alexis-Baker

I mean we live in a culture and time that makes this possible, and it is a result in my opinion of a very distorted culture that can allow people to change the very core of life through such techniques. As someone who has serious misgivings about modern technological society, this is one of the issues that confirms to me that this whole system and culture if fucked up.

To play devil's advocate for just a moment, I would point out that you and I are vegans, and we wouldn't be able to follow that lifestyle without modern technological methods which allow us nutritional supplementation. What is that if not "changing the very core" of our own lives? Maybe not in a way as blatant as a transgender operation, but nonetheless altering the functionality of our existence in a way that conforms to our own personal ideas, and in a way that wouldn't have been at all possible as recently as 100 years ago.

Nonetheless, I kind of agree with Andy, though what I would say, Marja, is that I would like to see individuals who consider transsexual surgery instead come to terms with themselves and find contentment in how they are. I'm not of the opinion that transgendered people ought to be shunned or alienated from the Christian community, but I would say that God created us with an identity and we shouldn't really need to hide away from that. If we come to a point where we feel the need to change who we are as people, then there may be other issues within our psyche that need to be addressed. With all of that said, I hope that you find support and guidance from your friends and family regardless of the final decision you make. I will be praying for you, not that you are deterred from one decision or the other, but simply that God will be with you through this time of change and consideration.

[Josh Humphries]

I'll simply register that I beg to differ with the "skepticism" that others have had. Gender identity and sexual orientation through a theological lens is something that is the focus of a work that's been sidelined for some time. If I ever get around to working on it again, that'll be my counter-argument.

For now, I'll simply stick with my words on the subject of "dealing with" change. And so I'll continue my "sabbatical" from most online activity (save for the occasional pitching of short words/phrases that I have been doing).

[Rob A]

Originally Posted by Shadowmancer

To play devil's advocate for just a moment, I would point out that you and I are vegans, and we wouldn't be able to follow that lifestyle without modern technological methods which allow us nutritional supplementation. What is that if not "changing the very core" of our own lives? Maybe not in a way as blatant as a transgender operation, but nonetheless altering the functionality of our existence in a way that conforms to our own personal ideas, and in a way that wouldn't have been at all possible as recently as 100 years ago.

Some Eastern societies and religions (Jainism, for example) have been essentially vegan for centuries, if I'm not mistaken.

[Shadowmancer]

Originally Posted by Rob A

Some Eastern societies and religions (Jainism, for example) have been essentially vegan for centuries, if I'm not mistaken.

Members of Jainism would have been vegetarian, as would have some Hindus and Buddhists, but veganism would have been unsustainable due to unattainable plant sources of Vitamin B12.

[Marja]

Re point four, Andy wrote:

I mean we live in a culture and time that makes this possible, and it is a result in my opinion of a very distorted culture that can allow people to change the very core of life through such techniques. As someone who has serious misgivings about modern technological society, this is one of the issues that confirms to me that this whole system and culture if fucked up.

I responded:

4. It has existed in other cultures. Of course the physical treatments have gotten better (and are getting better) but they simply underscore the desperation of people who went with older two-stage SRS, and before them, people who took the only options then available... Some people find that CDing gives some relief, and that has been present everywhere.

So no, I'm not making the "everyone else is doing it" argument. I'm questioning how transsexualism can be the "result in my opinion of a very distorted culture ... modern technological society."

I'm not relying on coincidences. I've looked to conscience, reason, tradition, and prayer; the events have given more information for my reason, and the coincidences have affected my interpretations of my prayers. And all this takes time ...

P.S. I don't think I'm changing who I am. I felt like an imposter in my own life. I feel like I can be myself for the first time since childhood.

[Rob A]

Originally Posted by Shadowmancer

Members of Jainism would have been vegetarian, as would have some Hindus and Buddhists, but veganism would have been unsustainable due to unattainable plant sources of Vitamin B12.

OK. I'm not really up on the differentiation.

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by Marja

Re point four, Andy wrote:



I responded:



So no, I'm not making the "everyone else is doing it" argument. I'm questioning how transsexualism can be the "result in my opinion of a very distorted culture ... modern technological society."

I'm not relying on coincidences. I've looked to conscience, reason, tradition, and prayer; the events have given more information for my reason, and the coincidences have affected my interpretations of my prayers. And all this takes time ...

P.S. I don't think I'm changing who I am. I felt like an imposter in my own life. I feel like I can be myself for the first time since childhood.

Fair enough Marja. I sincerely wish you the best in your life. Since I only have a peripheral understanding of what is happening within you, I only wish you peace on your journey.

BTW, do you think there may be anything significant to the statement from Jesus about "some making themselves eunichs for the kingdom of heaven" in light of your circumstances? I'm open to being totally off on this, but just thought I'd ask.

In love,
Jeremy

[Rob A]

I just read something from the letters of St. Cyprian which may have bearing. Cyprian was a bishop from Carthage in northern Africa in the mid 3rd century. In one of his letters, he wrote to another bishop to uphold current church prohibitions on actors being received into the Church unless they quit their profession. It might sound weird for us to hear that the Church of that time had prohibited actors from the catechumenate, but listen to the reasons why-

"Even in the Law men are forbidden to put on women's clothing and if they do so they are judged accursed. It must, accordingly, be a far worse offence not merely to dress in women's clothes but, by acting, to depict in the course of teaching this immoral art, the degraded, the degenerate and the effeminate."

By the "Law" reference, Cyprian is alluding to Deuteronomy 22:5, which essentially prohibits crossdressing by either men or women. In the theater of the time, women's roles were usually portrayed by men, and as you can see by what Cyprian writes above, even this degree of "gender-bending" was rejected by the church at that time.

He goes on, speaking of the man who was teaching acting to others:
"... For he is teaching and instructing men how to be debased into women and how, through art, to change their sex and thus by the sinful actions of their perverted and degenerate bodies to give gratification to the devil who despoils the handiwork of God."

That's about as close to a ruling on transgenderism as we're going to get from the early Christian tradition. It was seen as completely unnatural for a person to even portray another gender in the theater- "despoil the handiwork of God." I don't think it's much of a leap to figure out what Cyrpian might have felt about actually altering one's gender.

Anyway, it sounds as if you've already made the change, Marja, so it's pretty much a moot point. I can't know or understand what you've done and been through, so I can only wish and pray for your peace in your life's journey. Blessings!

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

And the EAstern Orthodox Monks are vegan for a large part of the year. That whole argument that is it only the technological society that allows us to be vegetarian or vegan does not fly, expecially because most of the world is much closer to vegetarianism than the 'developed' countries.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

Yes...the early church would have not allowed anyone who had had this kind of sex change into the church. They would not have been allowed to join more than likely, under any circumstances (there were lots of prohibitions against eunichs and not just because of the cultish background).

If a transexual tried to join any church I am involved in there would have to be extensive, extensive church meetings, and also catechesis for that person to renounce the devil and pomp and some major confessions around this issue. I doubt seriously folks would let this one slide as anything goes. It would be a long process with no clear end.

[Marja]

So what's your problem?

My condition? I believe it's the way God made me - I don't know why.

My interest in treating it? Is this any different than treating any other birth defect?

Now some people are born male, some people are born female, and some people are born IS. There's strong evidence that those of us who are born TS are born IS with brain/genital differences rather than ambiguous genitalia. Should IS people be free to define their sex? If so, why not TS people? Should IS people be free to correct genital issues? If so, why not TS people?

The earliest Christian teachings don't address transsexualism or transition. Transition involves changing one's life and one's body to move into the natural sex which best fits onesself, and out of a mess. I'm full time, but I've only spent 8 weeks on hormones.

The earliest Christian teachings do address eunuchs who went from a natural sex, or a mess, to an artificial sex. It's much simpler, technically, but more more extreme, in other senses.

Now what are the lessons of Matthew 19:12? Or Acts 8?

They were accepted. All the condemnations of what we do condemn what they do. Therefore, we should be accepted. All the later condemnations of them show how quickly Christendom abandoned Jesus' teachings and accepted the prejudices of the world.

The sabbath was made for man. Every rule is supposed to help people, and should be broken where the rule would hurt people.

[Shadowmancer]

Yeah, and the church father Origen made himself a eunuch. I'd have serious reservations about that myself, but at the same time it's still a drastic (and irreversible) alteration to a person's anatomy, yet they were still accepted. I find it a little weird that some churches might exclude or demand repentance of someone who was transgendered. I mean, in the first instance, excommunication is Biblically used to exclude a person until a time of repentance. Could a transgendered person "change back" though? And in the second instance, even if a TG person were to "repent" of their sin, what use is that going to be now that they are permanently of a different sex?

I do think it should be the right of individual churches to decide upon how they feel about the issue, and if need be to encourage such individuals in the process of self-reflection and self-examination... but in all honesty, something as drastic as exclusion from the community just doesn't make practical or even Biblical sense.

[Josh Humphries]

Originally Posted by Andy Alexis-Baker

If a transexual tried to join any church I am involved in there would have to be extensive, extensive church meetings, and also catechesis for that person to renounce the devil and pomp and some major confessions around this issue. I doubt seriously folks would let this one slide as anything goes. It would be a long process with no clear end.

And if a person with views as yours tried to join a meeting that I was involved in (being an unprogrammed Quaker, we call it a "meeting"), I'd stand in the way of that person's membership until they explained their hatred for another person in this way.

Frankly, your views seem to be deeper than a simple issue of a "different point of view" on this subject. Do you care to point us to where your views come from (i.e. how you came to this conclusion)?

"Changing sex" by the modern understanding is a totally different mechanism from anything that existed before it. To compare it to eunuchs (who were neutered for a host of reasons *other than* sexually matching themselves up with their gender identity) or to cite Deuteronomy 22:5 is like citing the first part of Deuteronomy 13 to address meteorology. Another point with Deuteronomy 22:5 that earns a squint and a "HUH?" from me is those who've used it to take issue with "Powder Puff Football" games in high schools during homecoming weeks.

At the same time, I'll agree with Andy that talking about vegetarianism/veganism isn't parallel with this; of course, the reason why most of the world is so close to vegetarianism/veganism most of the time is because most of the world *CAN'T AFFORD* anything else.

I will finally say that until you've met a transgender/transsexual person and fully understood their "walk" in life, you probably can't understand the issue; until you can, it might not be a bad idea to be a bit more sparing in your words, be it in their number or in their...magnitude.

[raven]

I have found that ultimately I am responsible for choosing which values and morals I think are of higher worth and those which are of less worth. Although, this is not say that I don't try to listen and take the values from others which I find even higher than my current values and creatively integrate them within myself or, values which further enhances and expands my own ideals for further growth.

I mean to say, I am reponsible for choosing which is the higher.

We can let dead men and women tell us which is higher and follow their values.

We can let books, religious or otherwise, and their interpretations by others, tell us for certain what is right and wrong.

We can let authority figures of any stripe tell us which is higher and which is less.

We can let peer pressure from social groups and culture tell us as well. And let their punishment of becoming outcasted from them keep us obedient and not become truly who we are.

But in all this certainty nothing is really certain.

Everyone is making a choice of which to choose, external or internal, even if nothing is conciously chosen.

I figure, if I were to follow these as such, without consciously choosing for myself which is higher and which is lower, then I wouldn't be becoming true to myself. I'd feel I was a conglomeration of all these external forces. I'd be a creation of others and not a creation of myself.

I'm so tired of myself for judging others. I am personally tired of judgements of others. For making others feel like an outcast. I would rather go to Josh's church and hang out with those folks who have often been called unrepentant sinners.

I personally believe that what is of higher value is our treatment of others and not so much rules and laws, which pertain to relatively minor personal choices. Although, I am not saying that I follow my ideals all that great.

For myself, I believe it is best to err on the side of not judging and instead loving. What I think is of less value, is what devalues, another.

If God puts his wrath upon me for creating my own values from within, I guess I accept it, for I have no choice but to be true to myself. Anything else, would be a lie and God could easily see through that. But I sometimes believe I am being led to trust myself, and I was led through uncertainty and the death of God to do this.

I would like express one aspect of Christ's crucifixion that I am drawn to.

Christ was crucified outside the city gates of Jerusalem along with the Godless, criminals, the scapegoated and alienated. By definition of who He is, He brought Divinity to them and ressurection. He overcomes in dissolution.

And so, where God seems like He is not, He is, but yet hidden. God is in His absence and abandonment where there is also Life and ressurection. It's not logical or rational to me, but it somehow makes sense to me.

It was the godly and pious who crucified the Eternal in the name of their God's holiness and He forgave for they did not know what they do.

So Marja, I have no advice or anything, just my thoughts. and oh yeah, the title of this thread reminds me of that David Bowie song, cha-cha-changes...

[Josh Humphries]

I will make one little amendment/addendum:
I was being "judgmental" in my assessment of the origin of Andy's views. It's a fine line we all must walk; that said, I have greater concern about institutional "pressure" on people than I do about individual acts. My sense is that it's between them and God. When individuals try to use institutions to enforce certain modes of behaviour or certain worldviews, I get fired up.

That's basically why I said a sort of "Nanny nanny boo boo" point at the beginning of that last post (which I'll confess yet again was wrong for me to do...something anyone who knows me will know to be something nearly impossible to hear from me). I'll welcome anyone whose views differ from mine to the table, as long as they don't start to use the institution to enforce their schemas of what individual action should look like; that's because language is fluid and each person's understanding of it varies. And I'm sorry for that smart-ass reply that I made; however it does demonstrate my central point, which is why I'm letting it stand.

My main point of concern is rooted in one aspect of my upbringing; I remember hearing churches without shall we say "animated" worship being described as "dead" churches where God basically wasn't present. If you saw the movie "Jesus Camp," you saw children being indoctrinated with such empty notions. What I "smell" in some of the statements made in this thread is modern cultural biases hitched with prooftexting (from both "sides"). It requires a step back, looking at less specific scriptural references to craft a new understanding.